The Festival of Lights When We Need It Most

In the final 2024 episode of Adapting, David Bryfman hosts Jonathan Shmidt Chapman—award-winning artist, writer, and Jewish educator—for a lively conversation about bringing Jewish education to life through drama and creativity. Focusing on Chanukah, Chapman emphasizes using multi-sensory experiences, like smell and taste, to make Jewish traditions more immersive and meaningful for children and families. This episode explores how multi-sensory experiences like storytelling and imaginative play can make traditions more meaningful. At a time when we need it most, Chapman shares fresh ideas to illuminate Jewish education this holiday season and beyond. 

This episode was produced by Dina Nusnbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show’s executive producers are David Bryfman, Karen Cummins, and Nessa Liben. 
 
This episode was engineered and edited by Nathan J. Vaughan of NJV Media. 
 
If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a 5-star rating and review, or even better, share it with a friend. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and be the first to know when new episodes are released. To learn more about The Jewish Education Project visit jewishedproject.org where you can find links to our Jewish Educator Portal and learn more about our mission, history, and staff. We are a proud partner of UJA-Federation of New York. 

Transcript

David Bryfman: 0:00

Hi everybody, and we are recording today's episode of adapting on December 13, 2024 in the lead up to Hanukkah, and hopefully you're listening to this episode in the days leading up to that amazing holiday which so many of us will celebrate all around the world. And today's episode is really a discussion about that holiday, but through the eyes of an educator who really engages the entire family through theater, through drama, through creativity and play. And I think now more than ever, we need to bring ourselves back to what Jewish education can and all should be about. And in some ways, this episode is a break from our traditional or a break from our programming that we've had for an extended period of time. And I've done it deliberately to remind us that as all of the things going on in the world around us, as difficult and challenging as some of those moments might be, that there is a calendar, that there is a cycle. There is a pattern of Jewish repetition and ritual and holidays that we can't lose sight of, and especially, and maybe really especially today, that the holiday of Hanukkah is a time for Jewish pride and Jewish joy to be and to resonate through all of our lives and through all of our families, in spite of the ongoing challenges that some of us are experiencing and for these eight days towards the end of the calendar year of 2024 that I want to wish everybody a Happy Hanukkah, a time for you and your families to be able to celebrate together and to listen and learn to Jonathan and to take some of those learnings with you and to your friends and your family as well. He really sets the bar high, but I think it's really attainable for all of us to bring more joy into our lives at a time when we all need it. So happy. Hanukkah to everybody, and I'm sure you'll enjoy today's episode of adapting as much as I did recording it. This is adapting the future of Jewish education, a podcast from the Jewish education project, where we explore the big questions, challenges and successes that define Jewish education. I'm David breifman, so I'm really thrilled to be able to have as my guest today, Jonathan Schmidt Chapman, who is an award winning artist, writer and Jewish educator. I don't normally go into deep BIOS with all of my guests, but I do want to point out two of the awards which Jonathan has received, or at least two of them. He is one of the recipients of the Robert M Sherman Young Pioneer Award at the Jewish education project. So we are thrilled that he's part of our extended family there, and also He is the recipient of a covenant foundation pomegranate award for an emerging Jewish educator. And I guess now you're a veteran Jewish educator. So Jonathan,

Unknown: 2:30

welcome to adaptive today. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. So

David Bryfman: 2:33

we really want to have this conversation not just about your work, but also in the lead up to Hanukkah. It's a time of spreading joy and happiness in a pretty complicated world, and we wanted to have that conversation with you. But before we get there, why don't you tell us a bit about yourself, specifically the emphasis in drama and the arts in your in your whole educational philosophy and framework.

Unknown: 2:54

I come to Jewish education by way of a background in theater for young audiences and educational theater. So what does that mean? I specialize in creating multi sensory performance for kids and families, mostly kids under seven years old. And then I also have studied how to use theater in educational settings to bring any content to life, through play, through hands on participation, through creativity. So I bring that background and that pedagogy. Now to Jewish education to think about how we can activate tradition using these tools in a hands on sensory way.

David Bryfman: 3:29

All right, so let's talk about this multi sensory thing, because I think it's a it's pretty cool. And I think maybe a podcast is the least multi sensory format that we could be communicating in at least, at least one sense is being utilized, I guess, but can maybe give an example of what a multi sensory Jewish experience looks like for you. Yeah. So

Unknown: 3:47

I think about story a lot. Story is really the anchor for me in thinking about how we bring young children and families into Jewish tradition, and thinking about how we can use all of our senses as ways to bring those stories to life. So rather than an experience that would be passive, where I'm just watching or listening, I'm using a variety of ways to engage. I'm receiving information through language and music. Maybe I'm actually touching props or sensory engagement with physical items that evoke the story. I'm using my body and my imagination to act things out, actually, very similar to the way we would engage with Passover. You know, I think it's part of our tradition to think about, you know, kilu, who ya saw me, Miranda, right? We're imagining as if we ourselves left Egypt, and we do things around Pesach to embody the story, right, using our senses. So I kind of take that idea and apply it across Jewish education. How do we use all of the ways that we can engage to really feel these stories and be a part of them? So

David Bryfman: 4:46

talk Pesach for a bit. Tell us. Tell us. What does the Jonathan Schmidt Chapman Passover something look like?

Unknown: 4:51

So last year, I staged a show called across the sand that had families and children sitting at long tables that. The experience began. It looked like you were sitting at a Seder table, and then, as the artist facilitators entered the room, removed the cover on the table and revealed underneath was a map that looked like we were arriving in ancient Egypt, and the story unfolded on the tables in front of us. So we pass a miniature basket along a Nile River. We build structures out of blocks in front of us to create Egypt. We use fabric to cross the Red Sea so through the story, using ways to play out the moments and to feel literally immersed in it. There

David Bryfman: 5:35

are so many things I want to talk to you about, but let's start with this one. You've used the word play a couple of times, and I want to better understand from you what play means, because the audience could, you know, have one meaning of this. The kids are having fun, they're playing soccer, they're playing in the playground, they're having fun. And I think you mean something a bit more, you know, nuanced than that. Maybe you call it serious play, maybe you don't, but when you talk about play, what are you referring to? I'm

Unknown: 5:59

referring to imaginative play. Guided imaginative play, meaning that is a language that's very familiar to a young child, right? They play act all the time. They dramatically play to learn about the world. It's very easy for them to imagine themselves in a different place inside of a story. So I kind of harness that tendency, right, that natural language of children, and really the work is trying to encourage grown ups to access that again, right, to find that inner play, to be able to play alongside their child. So what does that mean? That means that I'm going to physicalize parts of a story. I'm going to imagine and embody as if I were there, right? So if I'm leading a family workshop around the story of Hanukkah, we might be running along with Judah through the city. We might help, you know, imagine rebuilding the temple after it's been destroyed. And so we're using our imaginations to activate moments from a story and then bring them to life through play, through physical play, and through imagination. And these are the kind of foundations of, you know, theater based play. Rather than using those tools to do a show on a stage, I'm using them in an environment to to connect with other people, to imagine myself inside a story, and to use joyful embodiment to connect both with content and in a social setting. Maybe

David Bryfman: 7:23

this is a silly question, or maybe this is the the serious question at the heart of all of this, like, I'm actually learning something,

Unknown: 7:30

it's a great question. So my favorite thing about arts education in this way, it's not just about joy, although there's a lot of joy to it, and I think there's a huge benefit in connecting people through joyful experience. But the research shows us that when we especially young children, when they engage in story in a hands on, sensory, embodied way, they're actually building deeper memory retention. So the story will stick, the learning will stick in a different way than a passive learning experience, because they've acted it out, because they've been a part of it, because they're building connections between the story and visual or tactile, sensory experiences. So when they recall it, they're going to remember passing that basket down the river. They're going to remember building the temple, right? These images will come back and those so the research shows both that those memories stick in a deeper way. It's more impactful. And we're increasing social bonding, that when I have a play based experience with other people, I feel more connected to community because of the way we've enacted it. So I think those things are really powerful. I think we can apply that idea throughout education. It supports learning in it in a much deeper way, as well as being fun and joyful and light. So you've

David Bryfman: 8:42

mentioned this a couple of times, and I don't know if it's intentional or just that it's just become part of your everyday language that as long with your you know, seven year old and younger kids, the parents and the families are involved almost at every step of the description that you've given us so far. What role do the families play in all of this? And is this more for the parents than it is for the kids. Talk a bit about that. I

Unknown: 9:03

think the parents, you know, the grandparents, the caregiver, is equally, if not more, important as a participant. Because if I can bring the whole family into Jewish engagement, Jewish discovery through play, and give them the tools to play with their child, to be playful, to be creative, to think about Jewish engagement as something we can experiment with and have joy with, hopefully that that will translate to what they can bring into the home. I think what I what I see, is a lot of grown ups coming into Jewish spaces with a lot of baggage. They walk in, into a learning environment kind of really guarded and bringing some possibly bad experiences from their childhood in this is going to be boring. I'm not going to know what's going on. I'm going to feel like I don't have enough information to participate. My child will be embarrassed, right? All this baggage that comes into the room. And so if I can treat them as a learner and an artist alongside their child, right, leaning into the idea. You that we're going to learn together. We're going to be curious together. We don't have all the answers, and we're not afraid to be silly that hopefully will stick in a way that carries on way past the experience that I lead on that particular day.

David Bryfman: 10:12

Yeah, I'm taking myself back to my kids when they were at a similar age, and I had no trouble being silly with them in a music class or, you know, an art class of some description. And what you're saying is, yeah, that's what parents do with their kids. Why not do it in a in a Jewish learning environment as well? I mean, what you're saying is so obvious when you say it, and perhaps not so obvious when it's being thought about in other spaces.

Unknown: 10:34

Yeah, yeah. I think parents also feel a lot of pressure to get it right, or feel pressure around what it means to bring Jewish ritual into the home and feel that, you know, they don't have the tools to figure out what that means for them based on whatever experiences they're bringing in from their childhood, from their upbringing. But if we can help them access that spirit of play that they might have, as you're saying, in other spaces, and bring that to the way that they engage Jewishly, I think it can transform the way that that comes into the home and how it impacts the child and really, the whole family. All right,

David Bryfman: 11:07

so let's use that segue of the home and Jewish to talk about possibly the holiday celebrated by more Jews in America than any other holiday, at least in the home of all the holidays, and that is Hanukkah. And this episode is being released in the week leading up to Hanukkah. So talk to us a bit about your thoughts on Hanukkah and Hanukkah as a family a family holiday,

Unknown: 11:28

something I try to do is help kids and families connect the rituals of Hanukkah to the meaning behind the holiday. I think it's one of the most overlooked stories in connection to the actual holiday engagement, right? We know families might like them in the Hanukkah. They may play dreidel or have guilt out. They're going to hopefully, you know, connect with other family and get into the spirit of the holiday, but they may not impart the why, right? Why do we like the Hanukkah? Why do we play dreidel? And I think that there are age appropriate ways to bring the story of the holiday to life that may feel more comfortable for families, but what that does anchoring it right in this epic story of feeling of a period of time when we felt like we couldn't be Jewish, we couldn't be proud of who we were, and we needed to band together as a community, to not feel alone, right? And in community, we could be stronger and proud of our traditions, and maybe seeing how they resonate more deeply when they're threatened, right? When we can't experience something that is a given, how that much more important it becomes. Those are themes that are incredibly resonant right now. And if we can help families access that feeling when they're experiencing Hanukkah, I think it'll it'll have a much more meaningful impact for them, along with, you know, the fun and the joy and the light of the rituals. So this

David Bryfman: 12:55

may or may not go down well over podcast, and I'm putting you on the spot here, but give me your best shot. What's your two minute your two minute Spiel in front of a group of kids about why Hanukkah is meaning, like, pretend the audience is a group of children and their families. Like, how do you put it out? Because, and I want to like, this is not a footnote, but like, the story of Hanukkah has multiple versions in some way, so you're obviously going to choose a particular story, but let's hear it from you. Tell the story of Hanukkah as if you're telling it to a group of young kids and their families

Unknown: 13:23

in ancient Israel, there was a moment when we were worried about whether we could be Jewish or not. The hero of our story, Judah, was walking through the marketplace in ancient Jerusalem when he suddenly heard a decree from the King, from king Antiochus, who said, you can no longer be Jewish, you can no longer eat jewish foods, you can no longer read your Jewish stories, you can no longer practice your traditions. Judah couldn't believe what he heard. He ran home to his family, who were already preparing to go out into the wilderness to hide because they were worried about what was going to happen. And before Judah left the city, he noticed that the beautiful temple where he lit the menorah in the temple every night to shine light through the city was being trampled by the Greek guards of the King Judah family and all of the Jewish people ran into the wilderness and hid. They hid who they were. They were nervous about being able to be Jewish. They even invented games like dreidel to be able to pretend they were doing something else if they were caught reading stories from the Torah. But one day, Judah went around to his community and said, This isn't right. We need to be proud to shine our light. We need to be proud of who we are, and if we work together, we can change the King's mind and we can bring light back to the city. And alone, they were afraid, but together, they were powerful, and they were able to change the King's mind. And as they took back the temple and they started to rebuild and bring the menorah back up, they realized they didn't have enough oil to light the menorah to bring light to the city. They only had. One little jug that would only last for one night until they could make more oil. But a beautiful miracle happened, and that oil lasted for eight nights. And just like that, oil started as a little bit and was able to bring light for eight days. Just like that, Judah was able to make change by bringing community together. So at Kanuka time, we feel proud. We shine our light. We feel proud of who we are, of our Jewish traditions, and we share them with the world.

David Bryfman: 15:32

All right. Audience, just in case this doesn't feel authentic to anyone like that was a first take and an only take of a question to Jonathan that had no prior background preparation whatsoever. And that was, that was remarkable. Well, that was phenomenal.

Unknown: 15:51

I also think, you know, when we root those images in a story, right, as we are lighting the hanukkiah every night, we're remembering how important that light was, right, we're doing something that had huge significance, that people fought for, and even the symbol of dreidel right, the creativity of our people, to say, there are moments when we feel afraid, but we're still going to find ways to be proud of being Jewish, even if we have to be creative about it, even if we have to find ways to be safe. I think those ideas really resonate today for families who, quite frankly, are concerned about how to both proudly be Jewish and also be safe, depending on where they live, depending on the the way they feel around anti semitism in their community, it's a it's a difficult moment, and one that is, I think, even more important, to feel that sense of pride around this particular holiday as the meaning behind why we do this. How do you talk

David Bryfman: 16:44

about those issues with kids and their families these days? Or don't you, because obviously there's a heightened sense of many of those issues that you just spoke about. Are these things that you you actively engage in, or the parents want to talk to you about afterwards? Or how do you talk about some of these, these new realities that I'm sure all of us are experiencing some form or another,

Unknown: 17:02

I think, highlighting the idea that throughout our history, there have been moments where we feel small as a people in a community that is doing something else, and rather than, rather than leaning into feeling small in those moments to be proud of these things that we've held on to for a long time, right leading into gratitude, also for the ability to keep practicing our traditions and recognizing there were moments when those things were not available to us. And I think maybe the most important is giving families and kids experiences of Jewish joy to not only focus on when we couldn't do this or this was not allowed, but recognizing, why was this even important? Why did we care so much that we needed to fight for these traditions? Why are we proud to be Jewish and giving that a sense of joy in community, rather than only focusing on the fear or the negativity? I think that families and kids really need that, that sense of pride and connection and joy, so I

David Bryfman: 18:01

probably should have done more background on this, but I can't remember when the last time it was that Hanukkah and Christmas coincided. But more importantly, this year, where the first night of Hanukkah coincides with Christmas Eve, seems to be like that doesn't happen every that doesn't happen very often at all. Yeah, but I'm wondering this year, and I know that you've worked with and continue to work with many families who are interfaith families, or where one parent is Jewish and the other is not of any faith. But I'm wondering this year of having Hanukkah and Christmas coinciding, have you thought about that? Has that entered into your work, your discussions in general, how do you approach interfaith families, and specifically Hanukkah this year might have a special resonance or significance for some families.

Unknown: 18:44

Yeah, I think first of all, my approach through theater and play is one that is open, accessible and based in curiosity, and so I often find that that way in provides a safe place for interfaith families to enjoy and engage, right? They're not afraid to learn a story together, to play something together, to experiment in a way that feels comfortable, rather than feeling like solely a religious experience, right? So that's number one. Like, how can we engage in multiple traditions, by being curious, by learning about them, without feeling like I'm being indoctrinated right by like I can, I can engage. The other thing that I've been doing a lot of teaching around this year is I know I'm spinning it in my own way. Is a piece of Talmud that I really connect with this, this other alternate meaning behind why we celebrate an eight day celebration of light at this time of year. And this piece of Talmud talks about this story around Adam and Eve and the first winter, and the moment when darkness was increasing every night and how scared they were, thinking, Oh, the world's gonna descend into total darkness. And then that moment of switch right, the moment when the days start to get longer, again, recognizing, oh, this is the natural order of. The world, right, like light will now slowly come back and creating an eight day celebration in that period of time. And the Talmud sort of uses the story to explain why there are so many traditions at this time of year that are about bringing light in a moment of dark. So I think that this is an idea rooted in Jewish tradition, but we can see we can feel connected to not just Christianity, but a range of holidays and traditions that are about this moment where we feel most alone. We feel the world getting darker and darker and filling it with light, filling it with joy, feeling connected to other people, leaving our homes and being proud of who we are. That's a way I think, that we can connect and interfaith families around multiple traditions and cultures that are really all about bringing light at this moment of dark and using that both as a metaphor and the reality of it at this time of year. Can

David Bryfman: 20:50

you say something, if you can, about the tradition of placing the hanukkiah in your window for all of your neighbors to be able to see?

Unknown: 20:58

Yeah, I think this goes back to what we were talking about before, of this, this feeling of being proud, of saying we're not just going to do this tradition, but we're going to share with other people, right? We're going to share our light. We're going to show that this is what we do at this time of year, and being proud to do that, you know, not to bring the conversation down. But I train a lot of early childhood educators and other educators in Jewish spaces. And last year and this year, there's been real tension for them around how to teach the pride of the holiday, of saying, Put your menorah out and be proud. You know, go to that Hanukkah lighting. And Hanukkah is all about sharing that, and the real concerns that the parents or caregivers in their community have around depending on where they live, feeling nervous about that, about that public showing of their Jewish engagement. And for educators, specifically, I think they're wrestling with being true to that lesson and also acknowledging that parents are in different places around how they want to publicly be Jewish in this moment, and honoring that without scaring the kids and hopefully instilling in them a feeling of pride and a feeling of wanting to to share their traditions. As you're speaking,

David Bryfman: 22:06

I'm beginning to like think, Jonathan, you're such an amazing educator, and you've got such a rich history in theater and art. But then you just said, as you go around teaching other educators to do this type of work, who presumably, many of them don't have theater art background. So when you're teaching other teachers to do this work, what are some of the basics? The one Oh, ones that you're trying to give them to be able to bring all of this love of the arts and culture into into their work,

Unknown: 22:31

the very first thing I want to accomplish when I work with educators is to help them see that they're actually artists. I think education and the modality of being an artist are very connected, and there are a lot of educators, when I start with that, who will say, I'm not an artist, I don't make art. Don't tell me to do anything creative. And yet, they're constantly using creativity in the classroom. They're generating they're making decisions on their feet, they're responding to the needs of their students. They're hopefully playing alongside them. And I think if I can help them see that inner artist in them and look through the lens of their work as what? What if I looked at this as art rather than what I code as education? What might that open up? The tools I try to give them are a variety of obviously, my modality is performing arts, right? So thinking about how we can use a variety of techniques to bring story to life, whether it's helping students physicalize, right, using their bodies to either create character or to create landscape, right? How can we use our bodies to create the shape of the temple physically, giving them the tools of puppetry? So looking at how I use objects and tabletop work to bring stories to life in miniature or using shadow puppetry, different tools that they can use that are not about physical performance, but bringing story to life, using materials and then also accessing other thinking about ways to look at a story through multiple senses. That's really one of the key techniques that I offer, that I look at with teachers. So what I call it is a sensory audit. If I were to look at a story, what are the sounds? What are the materials, right? What are the possibilities for movement? And how can I convey this story to you without words? And what might that open up? So you know, if I'm telling a story to you, what is it to put if it, let's say we're telling the part of the Hanukkah story, it's set in the wilderness. What is it to put on sounds of the wilderness behind me while I tell that part of the story, it immediately transports the kids in the room right, just by using a different sense, I allow them to imagine themselves in a new place. So these are like simple tools that even a teacher who didn't study theater can start to incorporate into their classroom as a storyteller, as a way to bring experiences to life for their students, and hopefully use different modalities than the ones that you know they've traditionally used to to convey content and story.

David Bryfman: 24:51

So I think you've hit on four of the senses so far. Can we talk about taste for a second, given that it's Hanukkah coming up, are you a sufgan yacht? Person? Or a latke person. How do you talk about those and experiment with those with your kids as well?

Unknown: 25:04

Definitely a latke person. Yeah, that's, that's a, that's an interesting challenge, right, to incorporate smell and taste. So I trained with a theater maker named Tim Webb, who is a pioneer in sensory theater based in the UK, and every one of the experiences that he created for kids and families, specifically, he would specialize in zero to five year olds would in some way incorporate those tools. So, for example, he might like spray a scent onto a fan and waft it over the room so that the smell of the moment of that story is actually like filling the air in the space, obviously, Hanukkah, you know, just the the idea safely, obviously, of frying anything in oil is a sensory experience that sticks with you, right? So, more

David Bryfman: 25:52

than eight days, what's Jonathan? One message you want to send to families? And I don't know if there any kids listening to the podcast about about Hanukkah and Hanukkah this year, especially, to lean

Unknown: 26:03

into both the meaning of the holiday and the joy that it brings, to use this as a moment, to fill your family and your community with light, to be out there and proudly Jewish in this moment, and thinking about how to use the holiday as a vehicle for that, and possibly Thinking about what's one thing you could do every night of Hanukkah for eight nights that makes it feel unique and different. Can you play a different kind of game with the dreidel, where every time it lands on a on a different letter, you create a dance move and have a dance a dreidel dance party with your family. How can you retell the story using flashlights and paper to make cutouts and create shadows on the wall using simple things around the house, making Hanukkah playful and making a moment out of the togetherness of the family, beyond giving presents and lighting the kanakia, what how can you challenge yourself to really make it a time to connect and play alongside your kids? And finally,

David Bryfman: 26:59

Jonathan, is there an educator in your life who has helped shape transform you and make you into the educator that you are today, that you would like to pay tribute to as part of this adapting episode?

Unknown: 27:09

I love this question. I always think about the time I learned with Elie Wiesel. So I had the honor of being a student of his at Boston University when I was an undergraduate, and I took a class called, I think it was called literature of oppression, and he specifically used story as a way to connect to times throughout history as a vehicle for walking in somebody else's shoes to understand what they experienced. And the way that he spoke about personal story and connection as a way for us to learn really stuck with me, and I think is deeply embedded in everything I do

David Bryfman: 27:45

at the time. Did you realize you're learning from one of the greats of the Jewish people? Or is it like, yeah, he's just another professor.

Unknown: 27:52

No, I hung on his every word. I mean, it was, it was an honor just to get into the class. You had to write an essay in order to be chosen to be in the class, so it was already a big deal to be there, and he would be there for once a week, and then he was traveling and speaking and going to the United Nations, and then he'd come back and tell us where he was over the course of the week. And what I thought was fascinating is he specifically didn't put Holocaust literature on the syllabus. He chose to look at other moments, other periods of time, and, you know, through, obviously, the way he taught, we would connect his experience to what was happening in these other narratives. But he spoke in poetry, and he was one of those people who I I just wanted to listen to and absorb and sponge as much as I could as I was in his room,

David Bryfman: 28:38

and not to compare, but I felt a bit like that during this conversation. Jonathan, so thank you literally hanging on to every word here. It's been a real delight and a pleasure to reconnect with you and to have this conversation. And thank you for all the work that you do. Thank you for bringing joy and light into the world when perhaps we needed as much as ever, and thanks for being a guest with us today on adapting. Thank

Unknown: 28:59

you, and I need to share that the young pioneers award, really, I think, helped the trajectory of my career and my place in Jewish education. It came to me in a moment when I was still sort of experimenting with this shift from the arts world to the Jewish education world, and not really knowing, is there a place for me in this field? I'm just really tinkering, I'm exploring, I'm there's a curiosity here, and that award shining a light on my work, and saying no, you belong in this community, really set me up for this path of shifting my focus to Jewish education. So I just want to say thank you for that honor and the way that it really shaped my trajectory.

David Bryfman: 29:40

This is a total episode of being unprepared, but it's a good segue for me to at least mention that the nominations for this year's Robert M Sherman Young Pioneers award are now open. And if you are a New York based educator, or you know of somebody who is doing some great work in Jewish education under the age of, oh, I think it's 36 please nominate them for. One of these awards, and you too can be like Jonathan Schmidt Chapman and appear on a future episode of adapting as one of our award winners. But seriously, Jonathan, thank you so much for joining us today a real, real pleasure, and treat with everybody.

Unknown: 30:11

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

David Bryfman: 30:14

Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show's executive producers are myself, Karen Cummins and nessa lieben and our show is engineered and edited as always, by Nathan J Vaughan of njb media. If you enjoyed today's episode of adapting and this season as a whole, please leave us a five star rating on Apple podcast. Even better, still, share this episode with a friend and help bring joy into their life as well, especially at this time of year. To learn more about the Jewish education project and all of our resources related to Hanukkah and other things. Visit us@jewishedproject.org There you can learn more about our mission at history of staff and the many programs and resources that we have available to you. And as always, we are a proud partner of UJA Federation of New York. Thank you as always for listening today and Happy Hanukkah to everybody you