Resilience Down Under: Antisemitism in Melbourne

In the aftermath of an arson attack on the Adass Israel Synagogue in Melbourne, David Bryfman interviews two Melbourne-based Jewish educators Itzik Sztokman and Marc Light. Together, they explore the emotional and educational ripple effects of this act of antisemitism on their local Jewish community. 

Itzik reflects on the growing sense of unease among Jewish students and families, emphasizing the need for resilience, open dialogue, and proud visibility of Jewish identity in the face of adversity. Marc shares how his school balances heightened security measures with the essential mission of fostering a joyous and meaningful Jewish educational experience. 

This episode was produced by Dina Nusnbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show’s executive producers are David Bryfman, Karen Cummins, and Nessa Liben. 
 
This episode was engineered and edited by Nathan J. Vaughan of NJV Media. 
 
If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a 5-star rating and review, or even better, share it with a friend. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and be the first to know when new episodes are released. To learn more about The Jewish Education Project visit jewishedproject.org where you can find links to our Jewish Educator Portal and learn more about our mission, history, and staff. We are a proud partner of UJA-Federation of New York. 

Transcript

David Bryfman: 0:00

We're recording today's episode of adapting on December 9, 2024 and over the course of the last few seasons of adapting, I can honestly say that I've learned something and gained something from every episode. I always choose guests and topics that I find interesting and, more importantly, that I think are important and necessary for the Jewish educational ecosystem as a whole, but sometimes conversations are a bit more personal, like the ones which I'll be having today. These conversations are about my hometown, Melbourne, Australia, and it's been in the news lately for all the wrong reasons. And even though I've been living in the States now for over 20 years, there is something incredibly distressing and disheartening and sad seeing Melbourne and the Melbourne Jewish community in the news and in my social media feeds in the way that it's being portrayed today. So this episode of adapting is being released literally just one week after the arson attack on the Adas Israel congregation in Melbourne. Since then, the attack has been declared a terrorist attack, and the perpetrators are still at large, and there is still significant political fallout taking place in Australia as a result of this incident and many others. But adapting is not a podcast about politics. It's a podcast about education, although, as I've often said, all education is ultimately political. But before introducing today's guests, some words of context, Australia and Melbourne specifically, is a large Holocaust survivor community, and the trauma of the Shoah runs deep, and it has almost certainly been passed down generationally. Australia is also a strongly Zionist community, and although recent studies have shown some changing patterns in the relationship of Israel to the younger generations, the bonds between Australian Jewry and Israel run very, very deep. Melbourne also has a strong ethos of Jewish Day School attendance, and although this number also appears to be slightly declining, some reports still cite a 60% attendance of school aged students attending Jewish day schools. Now, the Melbourne Jewish community is also very concentrated, at least traditionally So, and the dust Israel congregation is in the heart of this often self described, affectionately and yes, ironically, self referred to the Jewish ghetto, the A dusk community is by no means mainstream in terms of Melbourne Jewry, but they are certainly a visible and dynamic force in a landscape of Jewish communal life that is known for its diversity. Now, since October 7, some would say longer, anti semitism has been on the rise in Australia and specifically in Melbourne. And while my own estimation is that many of these incidents, including rallies, protests and often devolving into graffiti and verbal and sometimes even physical harassment and assaults, they might have begun as Israel or anti Israel activities, the distinction between anti semitism and anti Israel activities has been blurred, if not completely disintegrated. And the irony is not lost on anyone. The dust community, which was attacked last week, is is not identified as a Zionist community, obviously, a strong Jewish one. Now you don't need me or adapting to tell you more about what's happening in Australia right now. There are many other sources you can go to for that. What I wanted to do today was find out how educators are responding to these recent and horrific events. So I called Two of my former colleagues, both of whom I have deep and personal connections with, to ask them about life as a Jewish educator in Melbourne today, just one week after this terrorist attack on a synagogue literally down the street from both of their institutions. Its six document is the executive principal of YouTube, the United Jewish education board, which provides Jewish education for students in non Jewish schools. And Mark light is the principal of the King David Jewish Day School in Melbourne. They can and they will speak for themselves during this episode, but what I do want all listeners to pay attention to is how these two experienced and thoughtful Jewish educators are responding to this particular crisis, because it's beyond the headlines, beyond the rhetoric and the politics, all of which have a place in societal discourse. Because at the heart of their responses, filled with their sadness and even some trepidation and fear, there is a deep commitment to education, to their students and to the Jewish people. Now the only other thing that I'll say before handing it over to Itzik and then a few minutes later into the conversation you'll hear from Mark is that their messages, like all good educators, are ultimately filled with hope, and despite the anti Semites, or in spite of the anti semitism, Jewish education, Jewish pride, and the Jewish people will not only survive in Melbourne, but thrive there for generations to come. And now, in an episode which I never thought that I'd have to record, it's over to Itzik and then to mark for their reflections as Jewish educators on life in Melbourne, Australia, after the terrorist attack against the Adas Israel congregation, against the Jewish community and against Australian society as a whole, this is adapting the future of Jewish education, a podcast from the Jewish education project where we explore the big questions, challenges and successes that define Jewish education. I'm David Brafman. Hey, there. It's sick. It's good to speak with you. We've known each other for quite a while, and I think it's a bit unfortunate that it's taken events like the ones in the last couple of weeks to bring us together on adapting.

Unknown: 5:09

Yes. Thank you. Thanks. It's good to catch up again. Let the listeners know

David Bryfman: 5:13

what your initial thoughts and reactions were when you first heard about the arson attack on the dust Israel congregation.

Unknown: 5:20

Look, I think probably the worst kind of indication is that it wasn't shock, and I think that was something that actually shocked a lot of us, that when we heard that there was an arson attack on a shul, of course, it's a shocking event, but we were not so surprised. Things have been going a little bit downwards in Australia for a little while now, and the fact that a shul was was attacked by an Arsen attack was, you know, just something that's like, Yeah, well, that probably, you know, would have happened after everything else.

David Bryfman: 5:52

So that's not a great state of affairs for for Melbourne Jewish community to be living in. Do you feel like you're living under constant threat or constant fear.

Unknown: 6:01

Look, I don't think it's constant threat physically. I think that physically, we haven't been under constant threat. It's more about emotionally feeling comfortable. As Jewish people in Australia, that's where we've been under threat. I mean, there, there's a lot of talk about that, people use the word I feel unsafe, and that's sort of a word that's not really defined so well. And I don't think we feel unsafe that we are physically in danger, notwithstanding the arson attack on the shore, I don't think walking around the streets we feel like we're physically in danger, but we do feel unsafe. We feel like we could be approached and verbally abused at any moment. So

David Bryfman: 6:45

you work with educators, and you work with the educators who work with the young people who attend public schools and private schools, not the Jewish schools in Melbourne. So what's the message you're sending those kids? Because, I mean, they're living on the front face of interacting with the broader Australian society, and something like this must be very unsettling for them. So what was the message you sent out on Friday to your teachers and students you work with? Well, I

Unknown: 7:09

think for us, we do a couple of different jobs. So we work in the primary school space, so that's five year olds to 11 year olds. And then we work in the high school space, which is our teens, our teenagers for the primary school programs, we really have communicated with parents on several occasions since October 7 that the best place for discussions to happen with children that are under 11 years old is at home, and so that's the messaging that we sent again. Our parents know their kids far better than we do. They know their sensibilities and what they're sensitive about, and we really message to them repeatedly and encourage them to have conversations at home. And if conversations do come up at school, you know, we address it as quickly as we can, and then we try to move on in our high school space, it's a lot different. We really work on a much more informal or experiential basis. We oversee BBYO in Australia as well, so we're very much in the teen space in that regard. And there we have, you know, a lot of interaction with kids and a lot of discussion about what's going on in Israel. Our educators are really encouraged to discuss anything that the kids want to discuss, and that's what we do. There's not really a script to follow. One thing that we are doing, which is, is very is very different, is that we do run what we call our Ambassadors Program, and so we have a cohort of teenagers that we are training to talk about who they are and how they are Jewish and what that means. So there's a little bit of an extra emphasis on that, on that kind of, you know, self, being able to talk about yourself as a Jewish person. Are you

David Bryfman: 8:46

able to give some examples, maybe, of some of what some of the teenagers have experienced, I'm guessing, like, what's the extent of the anti semitism that some of them have been exposed to in the last 14 months?

Unknown: 8:57

Yeah, so it's really interesting. Our teens are incredibly resilient. They are at government schools and non Jewish schools, and so they are at the forefront of being the recipients of all sorts of talk and discussion. And they're also incredibly proud. So they'll walk around with them again, Magen David on or an Israeli t shirt, and they'll do that quite proudly. And they classify all of this as banter. I don't know if banter is a word used in America or not, but it's you know. They just think it's, it's you know, kids talking, you know, to annoy other kids, and they don't take it so seriously. So I think they're incredibly resilient. They're not experiencing any physical danger at all. And occasionally they do get confronted with a pro Palestine, you know, advocate at their school, and they are very much seen as as Israel. So our Jewish kids at school are seen as Israel. So if someone has a problem with Israel, they reflect that problem onto that student. And so our students need to sort of stand up and defend. Themselves in that way. But again, it's it's something that's very verbal at the moment. So

David Bryfman: 10:04

you're touching on something which I think is quite fundamental and maybe misleading given the media coverage of what's taking place in Australia. Because what we're hearing internationally is that this anti semitism, or this anti Israel attitude, often becoming anti semitic in nature, is pervasive and impacting everybody. And you're saying, hang on a second. That's not exactly what's taking place. There are incidents out there, but our kids dealing with it in ways that the media is probably not not describing on an ongoing basis. It seems to be a bit of a disconnect, especially I read somewhere today that one American organization has given a Travel Warning to Jews traveling to Australia now on the ground. What are you and your more importantly, I think, for this discussion, what are the kids that you're involved with actually seeing and experiencing on the ground in Melbourne? So

Unknown: 10:52

I think that, I think the massive difference is that in Melbourne, 60% of the Jewish kids go to Jewish schools, and so they're going to have a totally different experience. They're going to feel a lot more confronted by this new wave of anti semitism. And I think what we need to understand about the kids that go to non Jewish schools and have gone to non Jewish schools for their whole lives, they live a non Jewish environment all the time, and so they're not feeling this level of newness of what's going on in Australia. I think the way you described it is really true. It really is confronting in a way it never has been before. But I think the kids at non Jewish schools have this higher level of resilience. Are

David Bryfman: 11:32

they proud of being Jewish and are they proud of being Australian, given all that's going on in the world?

Unknown: 11:37

Yeah. Look, I think definitely our kids, the kids that connect to our programs, feel incredibly proud to be Jewish. I think they're starting to question how they feel about being Australian. To be honest, I think it takes a little time for kids to start understanding what they're feeling but I feel like there's a sentiment of embarrassment that these kind of things can happen in Australia that you know, the pro Palestine lobby can block streets and transportation in the city every Sunday, and that just keeps, you know, going on unchecked. You know that social media is just rife with anti Israel and anti Jewish stuff. I think they're feeling, you know, that Australia is changing. It's interesting because

David Bryfman: 12:19

my questions to you began with talking about anti semitic incidences, and specifically the the arson attack at a synagogue. You went pretty straight into to questions about Israel and Palestine and and the Middle East conflicts, especially in a post October 7 world. Do you see that there's been a fundamental change in this discourse since October 7? And I guess the question back to you is, if that's the case, how have you and how has your approach to Israel education changed as a result of all that's that's transpired in the last 14 months? Look,

Unknown: 12:50

there is no doubt that there's an enormous shift since October 7, and I think that what the Jewish community is is really realizing and understanding is that there is no difference between an anti Israel sentiment and anti semitic sentiment in the in the eyes of the rest of the community, not the Jewish community, they're seen as the same. You know, personally, I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it's, it's true and realistic. That's my own, my own, you know, philosophical background. But I don't think that, yeah, I think that that seriously, there been a massive change since October 7. Look, we really feel it with our Israeli community. There's quite a large Israeli expat community in Australia and in Melbourne, and they also, for the first time in their lives, have felt anti semitism, and felt it through the lens of anti Israel. So it's been a it's been a massive, a massive change

David Bryfman: 13:48

as the leader of Jewish education in Melbourne, like, what's one message that you want to send to Jewish educators all around the world, knowing that when they now think of Melbourne, they're thinking of of all of these incidences, and especially the the arson attack. But what's the message you want to send to to all of them? Well,

Unknown: 14:05

I think it's one that really we reflect from our our teens, and that is just being proud. We're not cowering, we're not hiding away. And I think that, think about it, the way I grew up as a teenager in Melbourne, one of the things I always heard say to me was, take your hat. So I was religious, I wore a kippah, and every time I went out, the message was, take your hat. And I think that the one message that we need to project to ourselves and to the world is that, you know, we need to be proud of who we are and we need to stop hiding. I think another thing that's happened in Melbourne a lot is that every public event supporting Israel has been behind a wall, you know, so we hide behind this need for security, and this is quite contentious, I would imagine that we hide behind this need for security, and therefore we're not seen. And. I think if you're not seen, then you don't exist. It's much easier to be hateful to a people that you don't see. And I think the big message that we have, and a message that we really see through our kids, is is that we need to be loud and proud passionate Jews, and we need to be out there. We need to wear our magendavids. We need to wear Israeli T shirts. We need to be really proud of who we are, and we need to stop the hiding because it's not serving us any good. I've

David Bryfman: 15:28

asked this of all of my guests, I want to ask you as well, who's an educator in your life that's been majorly transformative for you, someone that you want to pay tribute to and acknowledge in this forum. Wow. Look,

Unknown: 15:41

I I'm not going to talk about you, David, because you're here. I look, I will talk about you for a moment, though, just just, we're colleagues, and we're the same age, and we went through the youth movements together, sort of, look, I think that, that you know, watching someone like yourself is has been incredibly inspiring. I'm just going to say that, but I'm going to move back to to my own high school experience. And there was a teacher who probably transformed my life, and I won't get into it too much, but the bottom line is, he just believed in me. I wasn't doing particularly well academically. I wasn't, you know, you know, had my own challenges, my own learning difficulties, dyslexia, ADHD, no one ever diagnosed it back then, you know, and I wasn't doing great, and he just sat down with me and just showed me that he believed in me. And I think in educators, that's what we need to do with our students. We have to form these, you know, these, these special relationships with our students, and we need to really show them that they are awesome people and that we believe that they are capable of anything.

David Bryfman: 16:48

Yeah, I appreciate the answers both of them, both the personal one, but also the broader message. And for our listeners, if it's not obvious, it's sick and I have known each other for many decades now, not giving away our ages completely, and it's sort of indicative that it's taken this particular week of events for people literally, to come to me and say, Who can you speak to from live, from Melbourne, Australia, to tell you about how bad things are down under at the moment for the the Jewish community. And it's a bit um, humbling and sobering to hear your reflections that like, yeah, this stuff is bad, but it doesn't really have to be the things which define the community. I think that's a that's a tribute to you and to your to your colleagues,

Unknown: 17:26

thanks. Look, I think that's true, but there's an enormous fear in the community, like I know my my mum said to me the other day, this is scary. And so my mum's the daughter of Holocaust survivors, and she's scared about this. And then my mother in law, who has lived in Australia most her life, she's been telling us that we should all think about making Aliyah and that, you know, she doesn't think that there's a future for us here. And then my daughter, who David, you know quite well, she's making Aliyah next month, and she's doing that because she wants to get into academia at a Melbourne University, and she feels like, as a Zionist, she just won't get a job. So although kids are doing well and they're resilient, and although the community is strong and will will rise above this and be even stronger for it. And you know, there are cracks, there are serious cracks that that that need attention. It's not like it used to be, and we're suffering a bit here.

David Bryfman: 18:25

Yeah, I get the real feeling of this story is only beginning to unfold, and we're going to look upon this particular point in time as a real as a real turning point for what's long been regarded as one of the most vibrant, successful, and I would say, integrated communities in the Jewish Diaspora. And I think just to thank you for sharing your insights as an educator, and I think we'll need to follow up in the near future and see what transpires in the upcoming months and years. So it's thanks so much for joining us on adapting today. Thanks, David, thanks. And now we're going to turn over to Mark light, the principal of a Jewish Day School in Melbourne, to talk about the same issues, but from a very different perspective. So Mark, it's just great to connect with you now for all of the wrong reasons, I guess. And I think talking to you, I don't know, it's been a couple of decades since we last connected as you know, fellow Jewish educators involved in a Zionist youth movement in the times that we're in, it's a bit, um, it's a bit of a shocking reality check that it's taken this event of recent days to bring us back together, but that sort of sums up the world in which we live. And I'm just wanted like, say hi. How are you? How's your family? It's good to reconnect, but for all the wrong reasons, right? Yeah,

Unknown: 19:32

yeah, it is a shame, David. And look, it is lovely to reconnect, and the family is great. It's It's been a long time, and having had a connection with you and and your your late mother, who my Introduction to Teaching was sitting in and observing her teach in her media classes way back when, and then I became the media teacher after she retired. So you know, that's amazing, and also teaching alongside your sister at. Time. So yeah, we go back a long way, and also to the youth movement days. And you know, my second child just finishing up her commitment to the same Youth Movement havoc that we were involved in. My oldest was very involved as well. So it's amazing to see that intergenerational stuff happen.

David Bryfman: 20:19

So what were your initial thoughts and reactions when you heard about the arson attack on the ADAs, Israel congregation, which has now been deemed a terrorist attack.

Unknown: 20:27

So I don't want to give you a wrong impression, I'm no sort of gin junkie or anything like that, but I actually happened to be on my way to the gym early last Friday morning. We have a intergenerational gym session that I do with my dad and my daughter, and I was driving separately there from my daughter, and I saw, as I was driving down Glen, I road one of the main roads in Caulfield. I saw in the distance flashing lights and sirens. And thought, Oh, I better drive a different way. And called my daughter and said, Listen, don't go down Glen. I wrote, take the other route. When we arrived at the gym, my daughter had been listening to the radio, and she said, look, there's been a suspected fire bomb attack on the dusty rail, sure. And so my heart started beating, and I jumped straight into action. And my initial thoughts were, I've got school starting in in a couple of hours, and I need to make sure that everything's secure. So rather than sort of processing anything at an emotional level or thinking about antiSemitism, I jumped into action. Called our security advisor, got in touch with the community security group to make sure that our operational needs were covered for the morning and then throughout the day, as more and more emerged, there was more to do. So, you know, drafting communications to the staff, to the community. It happened on a on a Friday, early Friday morning. So we sort of just had to get through the day, and then we had the weekend as more and more emerged. So that's sort of my initial reaction. Was jumping straight into action.

David Bryfman: 21:54

What's the preparation you've gone through to get to that? You know, immediate response mode. Sadly,

Unknown: 22:00

this is the world that we live in as a as a Jewish school, we're always constant to the threat environment. It is just a part of reality of operating we one of the first things that I had to confronted me when I became principal. Shortly after I became principal in 2014 not too long after, we received for the first time, advice to bring in armed guards, which had never been part of the environment Australian schools or in Victorian schools ever before. And so we went through some analysis, we got an independent report to determine whether it was the appropriate decision, and ultimately, we introduce guards for the first time alongside all the other Jewish schools. So it has been since the very beginning of my principalship, a very key aspect of our operations. We have a a standing security committee that meets every term to talk about our security needs. We have private security guards, we have the security community group, we have our security advisor, and we also have a parent Safety Group, where parents volunteer for shifts to stand outside the school, because they can be the eyes and ears, and they know who's meant to be there and who's not. And it sounds like a big wall of defense, and that it's all we think about. This is all about precaution so that we can live a positive Jewish life. And so yes, we it's been far more of my principalship than I had anticipated, far away from thinking about Jewish education, thinking about security. And really at the time when we were bringing in the armed guards, there was a lot around ballistics and all sorts of stuff that I'd never know anything about, and training regimes and all the things I'd never thought of. And I actually had to pinch myself every now and say, Am I really thinking about as an educator having these conversations? But it is a sad reality. There is a threat environment globally for Jewish institutions, and if we take the steps to be prepared and ready, then we can get it on with our life.

David Bryfman: 24:11

So Mark You and I have known each other for quite a while now, and none of this was the job description that you signed up for. None of this is why you got into this role. So how do you now begin to balance up what it is that you really want to be doing and what got you so involved in all of this work running in parallel to now this almost like this separate line of business that you have to really be taken care of all the time? Yeah,

Unknown: 24:32

it's a great question, but we could extrapolate out. And there's lots of areas of the business of being a school principal or head of school to to use different parlance, I think, where you're where you're living, that requires, you know, a step away from the immediate educational needs of students. You're thinking about human relations, you're talking about HR laws, you're talking about all sorts of aspects of compliance and operations and risk management. And insurance and all those things. But for me, I just think about facilitating education for my students. And so sometimes when I'm having these difficult conversations around these areas, I use a trick that was taught to me by a colleague, which is to imagine the virtual student, imagine a student who I'm doing this all for in the room when I'm having these conversations, and that's really grounding. And brings me back to the immediacy of why I'm doing this, which is to facilitate the development of Jewish identity and holistic education and a really solid grounding for our students moving into the future. So

David Bryfman: 25:37

what was the message you told your your students and the, I guess, the parent body as well on Friday morning.

Unknown: 25:42

So for me, it was all about the immediacy of their needs. The main thing they were worried about was their safety. So for me, the first thing was to check was, were our advisors satisfied with what we had in place, and did we need additional resourcing? Were there any measures that I had to add into our operations. So the immediate response was that our current setup was sufficient, but they were providing some additional resources of just people coming and scoping out and making sure as well. So I let our community know that, and I think that really settled people's immediate nerves down, as far as kind of the more existential things go, that takes time, and that's part of our ongoing development, and the messaging that that I offer, which is always one of hope and faith in the future, because I think that's really the gift that I can give our students.

David Bryfman: 26:31

How bad is it there? I mean, we're talking about Melbourne. It's a community that you and I both know pretty well. I mean, I know it pretty well. You know it very well. What we know about Melbourne is it's a, you know, it's known for being a large Holocaust survivor community. The trauma is real and probably intergenerational in many, in many circumstances as well. But what's it like for you living in Melbourne now? Do you feel like the Jewish community is under threat? Do your students feel like there is an existential threat against the Jewish community? And how do you balance all of those things going on as an educator in in one of the the main Jewish day schools in the Melbourne area.

Unknown: 27:06

So, David, absolutely, there is a shift, I think, in in the communal sentiment at the moment, there is a sense of some threat. I think I would characterize it as I've become much more aware of that is a generation of trauma we've we've talked about, you know, being a one of the largest Holocaust survivors in the world, or the largest outside of Israel, and the impact of that on our community. But I haven't felt it to the extent that I have now. I feel like around Shabbat tables, you know, over the last year and a bit since October 7, there's a lot of people have been asking the question, kind of, is this it? Is this the it that we've been kind of waiting for all our lives or over generations? My answer to that is, this is not it. It's not good. We've had some really bad situations. We've had a huge rise in anti semitic events. We've had some very damaging message coming out of particularly university campuses, also from some parts of particularly the extreme left of the political spectrum, some very damaging, you know, blatant anti semitic reactions. It's been a bad time in that regard. But I do think that there is a key difference. So I do hear about people talking about their Plan B's, and what would we do if it gets much worse, and where would we go and live? And those sorts of questions are happening, but I think they're what we have to remember is that the vast majority of Australians support a fair, inclusive way of life. We're not talking about any state sponsored or government led anti semitism. And so I think the parallels with, you know, 1920s and 1930s Europe are false in that regard. I think we have to be alert to what's going on. There is a rise of anti semitism. We need to address that, but we also, yeah, we shouldn't panic, and we need to hold on to our way of life, and that's really important as well. So I

David Bryfman: 28:59

want to ask you about the term pride, because I think it's one of the things which at least parents are asking of Jewish educators. I want my kids to be proud. And I think I want to ask you the two fold question, are you still proud to be Australian, and then are you still proud to be Jewish, given what's taking place around you? Or, I'm guessing the answer is probably yes to both. But how do you instill that pride in both when all of this is going on around you, and you know, as an educator, how do you instill that amongst your students? So

Unknown: 29:27

firstly, I love this question. For me, this is a really important and fundamental question. I think it's easy to get into a trap of focusing on negativity, thinking about we owe it to ourselves to instill Jewish identity in opposition to those that that hate us or or challenging us. But I really think that what we need to do right now is use our students emerging Jewish identities with joy and fun. So we have a real strong focus on stories and music and games, and we invite our. Families in whenever possible for celebrations, because I think that we're talking about here, identity development. It's not just education, it's identity development. So that's got to be encoded with emotion and positive emotion wherever possible. And so from an early age, that's really our focus. Is it infusing our Jewish life events with joy and love and acceptance, and then that becomes the basis of it. So yes, we need to focus on on what's going on in the broader community, but at the same time, what I want our students to take away is that being Jewish offers so much joy and richness and that they can celebrate our incredible and diverse culture, and that their Jewish identity is not a burden, that they should feel lucky to have this as part of who they are. And what about your commitment to Australia? So absolutely, look, I'm very much proud to be an Australian. How proud to be a Jew. Look, there's no society that's perfect. We just have to remember that this is coming from from the margins that the vast majority of Australians appreciative of our community, there's there's a lot of ignorance, and we can do better at educating about who we are and what we stand for. I still think you know to extrapolate on the my previous answer, Australian schools, General, Australian schools, have a real focus on Holocaust education. They visit the Holocaust center, but they might never go to the Jewish Museum, and so they learn a lot about what happened to the Jewish people, but they don't necessarily understand who we are, what we stand for, our culture, our belief, our ritual, our history, our philosophy, I think, once that's shared much more, rather than a focus on what happens when human rights deteriorate, we can learn better respect for one another within and I think Australia is a proud multicultural society. I think it's under threat at the moment for lots of reasons, but I think that's something that we really need to fight for,

David Bryfman: 31:55

to have a discussion about the fire bombing at the Israel congregation, or the increase in anti semitism in Australia, and not to mention Israel and the post October 7 world seems a bit disingenuous as well, because they are connected in some ways or in many ways, but I want to ask you the question, as an educator, not to, not to go into the politics or the socio politics of what's taking place, but as an educator, have you done anything differently in relation to Israel education in a post October 7 world

Unknown: 32:24

I think we do. I think our goal is the same post October 7 than it was before. We're really committed to providing a holistic and nuanced understanding of Israel. What we don't want is that experience of shock that previous generations had where they were taught everything's perfect and it's a living utopia, and then they would go and travel to Israel and find that their dreams were shattered and would become disillusioned. So we've taught this hugging and wrestling model as part of their Israel education for a long time, but that said, since October 7, I think we're much more sensitive around how we deliver this educational model. There's a lot of delicacy around it, and it's really about the personal experiences and the family connections that more so than in the past, everybody has somebody who's been directly impacted. So we've got to be very cautious about the emotional impact of our education, and also very much so our school is a Zionist school, and we and it's really important for us to reclaim that term, that the Zionism of the founders of the State of Israel is the best place that can be the most democratic, the fairest. So that's something that we really want to achieve, and the values that we're still committed to and still loving Israel and our students developing a strong sense of connectedness and appreciation, but it's changed in the sense that we haven't been able to send groups to Israel like we would previously. So that's a challenge. So it certainly has changed since October 7.

David Bryfman: 34:01

So given that I'm speaking to you after the events of last week as a leader of Jewish education in Melbourne, what's what's one message that you would like to share with Jewish educators all around the world right now?

Unknown: 34:13

So the terrorist attack happened on Friday morning and on Sunday evening, we had our presentation evening, our speech night, our big end of the year, school year function. And so it's sort of when I give my keynote speech for the year. And my message this year was, you hear Tov, it will be good. And it's a it was a funny thing to give that message so soon after Friday, but I wanted to deliver that message not because I have a magical belief that it's all going to work out fine and don't worry about it. But I also think that we are empowered to impact our reality and our the way that we interpret our reality, and that positive thinking is very important. And I think that under times of threat, the external hatred can corrupt. That's one's world view. And so by focusing on the positive aspects of identity, the joy in being Jewish, the wonderful contribution of Jewish Australians to the broader Australian community, and those key moments of intercultural and interfaith connections that have built Australia into what it is renewing our sense of tikkun olam, we can build the world that we want to live in. So that was the key message that I would I would put out there you hear. So it will be good

David Bryfman: 35:30

mark as of with all of my previous guests on the adapting podcast, I wanted to ask you who is one educator in your life that you think has transformed you and helped shape you into the educator who you are today?

Unknown: 35:43

That's a exceptional question. It's it's a challenging one. There's a wonderful educator who she was my late mother's best friend. Her name's Rene Jacques. She was an educator in a Jewish educator in Australia. She taught at Bialy college and also at a number of other Jewish schools for a long time. And I kind of see her as a bit of she's kind of my fairy godmother in relation to my educational journey. But everywhere along the line, she's noticed opportunities for me. She's encouraged me to apply for them. She's pushed me, and also everything she does. You know what I said earlier about integrity? It's really fundamental to how I understand that she's someone who always, always acts with integrity. She was incredibly relationship focused as a teacher, and that's something that really, I found really inspiring. So she's a wonderful person that I really look up to, and has also been fundamental in building me into the educator that I am today.

David Bryfman: 36:44

Mark, thank you. Thanks for for sharing. For all the wrong reasons, this is extremely enlightening and important for for educators around the world to be listening to your your voice and your your optimism, even in what is being portrayed as pretty dark times in in Melbourne, in Australian jewelry at the moment, and I'm looking forward to you and I being able to connect in better times and hopefully in person, and send my best to your family.

Unknown: 37:09

Thanks so much, David and to you as well. Take care

David Bryfman: 37:13

so both to its sick and to Mark. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time to join the show today. I know it wasn't easy for you. Wasn't easy for me to be listening to you either the struggles that you're talking about are both very, very real, but I appreciate both of you for your your honesty, your integrity, the work that you're doing, and just the commitment you have to your to your kids and to your teachers and to the Jewish people. Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show's executive producers are myself, Karen Cummins and NASA lieben. Our show is engineered and edited by Nathan J Vaughan of njb media. And if you enjoyed or if you took something from today's episode of adapting, please leave us a five star rating on Apple podcast. Even better still, share it with a friend. Leave us a comment there as well to learn more about the Jewish Ed project. Visit us@jewishedproject.org There you can learn more about our mission, our history, our staff and our commitment to Jewish education, particularly in a post October 7 world and as always, we are a proud partner of UJA Federation of New York. Thank you as always for listening. You