Sights and Visions of Israel Education

As we look at the future of Israel education, it's just as critical to look back and reflect on how we as educators have succeeded and could have improved in this holy work.

In this pivotal and hard-hitting Adapting episode on laying out the vision of Israel education, David Bryfman and Dr. Zohar Raviv create the space to look inward, encouraging educators to be self-critical and self-reflective. When it comes to the biggest challenges and how Israel education can improve, Raviv has opinions on this revolutionary moment in the evolution of the Jewish people. For those who care about the fate of Jewish pride, you won't want to miss this episode. 

This episode was produced by Dina Nusnbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show’s executive producers are David Bryfman, Karen Cummins, and Nessa Liben. 
 
This episode was engineered and edited by Nathan J. Vaughan of NJV Media. 
 
If you enjoyed the show, please leave us a 5-star rating and review, or even better, share it with a friend. Be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and be the first to know when new episodes are released. To learn more about The Jewish Education Project visit jewishedproject.org where you can find links to our Jewish Educator Portal and learn more about our mission, history, and staff. We are a proud partner of UJA-Federation of New York. 

Transcript

David Bryfman: 0:00

The shine a light on anti semitism. Civic Courage Award is now open for nominations. This is your opportunity to recognize someone who is actively combating the rising tide of anti semitism. This prestigious award celebrates individuals across eight categories, including students and educators, offering a $2,000 prize and national recognition. If you have someone to nominate, visit shine the light on.com forward slash awards to nominate someone whose activism spreads light by November 25 Hi everybody. We are recording today's episode of adapting on October 31 2024 and I'm having a conversation with Dr Zohar Raviv about the future of Jewish and Israel education in a year after October 7. In a post October 7 world, so to speak, one of the themes that I wanted to explore with Zohar, and we'll be doing so with other guests moving into other episodes, is how do we treat October 7 as a new turning point, a new page in Jewish education. Not that the issues that we spoke about might not have existed beforehand, but October 7 offers us the opportunity to really start afresh. But I don't want to say completely start afresh. I want to say double down on what we were doing really well, but also to reconsider some aspects of our Jewish and Israel education, because the reality now has changed substantially enough to warrant us to do so in order to get there. This episode allows Zohar to take both a professional and a personal look at where he's done really, really well and where he's also has his challenges. And I think that's one of the key messages for all Jewish educators that we need to be able to take stock of both our successes and also our pitfalls in order to help create this new reality. Thank you, as always, for listening today, and I am sure, I am absolutely sure, that you will enjoy today's episode of adapting as much as I did recording it. This is adapting the future of Jewish education, a podcast from the Jewish education project where we explore the big questions, challenges and successes that define Jewish education. I'm David breifman. Dr Zohar Raviv is currently serving as the International vice president of educational strategy for Taglit birthright, Israel. Zohar, thank you so much for joining us on adapting today.

Unknown: 2:16

Hi, David. Very good to be with you as always.

David Bryfman: 2:19

So you and I have met up a few times since October 7. We've had several conversations, but the last time you appeared on a webinar with us, it was really in the weeks directly after October 7. And I don't know how much you even remember from that recording, but at that particular point in time, I think you could categorize your expressions as somewhere between grief and shock and a real sadness, and understandably so, you were living through so much turmoil and terror at the time, but talk to us a bit about what your journey has been like since that time and where you are today.

Unknown: 2:54

Well, yes, David, I remember very vividly the time that we met, a few weeks after that dreadful moment, and indeed, you describe it accurately at first, like everybody else, the shock, the bewilderment, the anchor, the angst, trepidation, all of these emotions pretty much took over. But I think that quite soon afterwards, the educators had kicked in, and I started thinking on on a different level, understanding that that if we want to continue and do our work and fulfill our mandate as educators, we need to be able to look beyond, beyond the site, and start have a vision. And in that respect, there are five very, very brief things that governed my journey since that moment, the first being that I feel, and I still very strongly feel, that we are at what I call a revolutionary moment in the evolution of the Jewish people. The second point is that the only thing that I can see that is greater than this calamity is the educational potential in its wake. The third point is that while our shared past is a fact, our shared future is a choice, and I believe that the mandate of education is to help people make the choices that lead them to become more engaged, more informed, more involved, more passionate members of the Jewish people. The fourth point is about leadership in and of itself, which I believe cannot go hand in hand with despair. And the fifth point is that we are all in this together. So

David Bryfman: 4:31

let's use this conversation to go into a few of those things. And let's start off with a word that you didn't use, but it's one that we as educators like to use a lot, and that is optimism. And I think we both agree that a purpose, if not. You know, the mandate of all educators is to be optimistic if you don't think you can create a better future. And I'm not sure really what point there is to be an educator, but in the moments of despair, it's difficult, and I imagine that you're struggled through in the last year to always remain optimistic. So how do you deal with both the reality? And also your mission and mandate as an educator,

Unknown: 5:02

that's an excellent question. And I think that one of the first things that that that informed my approach was this distinction that you and I have discussed before, that I make between sight and vision and the site is obviously very, very difficult, but I believe that sites, by definition elicit a reaction, and reactions by definition are tactical, whereas visions are proactive and they are strategic. And my goal as an educator is to look at it from a strategic standpoint, and from a strategic standpoint, I will take what you said even a step further. Despair is a luxury we cannot afford. So for me, optimism is intrinsic to the educational mandate, and I refuse to see anything but optimism as the call to action that propels my engagement with education in general and with Jewish and Israel education in particular. Perhaps

David Bryfman: 5:59

it's worth reflecting on probably one of the disagreements or the arguments that not that you and I had, but the you and I were witness to and part of in the immediacy after October 7, I think that's that's very illustrative and helpful, and that was an educational approach which both of us have held for many years, that experiential education, informal education, allows learners to reach their own conclusions in a in a given learning environment, and that the good education is the opposite of indoctrination in many, many ways the listeners can't see. But so far, Zohar is still nodding. And then we had this, we had this big disagreement, not that you and I had the disagreement. We were witness to a disagreement between what it's like to allow people to reach their own conclusions, and also for education to hold certain moral truths or to hold certain moral elements or aspects of a discourse as undisputable and not up for discussion. Can you reflect a bit about that time and the and the discussions that were going on internally and maybe even externally for you at that time? Yes,

Unknown: 7:01

of course, you know this, and many others, that in the immediate aftermath of October 7 in Israel and October 8 in North America and other parts of the Western world, one of the things that I said very, very clearly that we need to uphold moral clarity, and that term moral clarity did not necessarily brush everybody the same way. And today, more than a year after October 7, I uphold this approach even stronger. And I've written about it, I discussed it, I lecture about it. I do believe that part and parcel of education is creating a clear distinction between what falls under right versus left and what falls under right versus wrong. And whereas both you and I and every other solid educator, in my opinion, should applaud the application of context and complexity, there are certain things that have no complex and no complexity whatsoever. And you witnessed me getting into bitter arguments with notable educators on this issue, which were valid and important arguments, but I still maintain that what happened on October 7 is a crime against humanity, and it should be held as such, and that we as educators should uphold a very clear moral standard, which, by the way, does not apply only to Jews. For sure, we're talking about crimes against humanity, not crimes against Jews, and that is a burden that educators must uphold very strongly as to the first part of your question about people having the right to form their own opinions, of course, which is obviously part and parcel of solid education. I do believe that the mandate of education, and we talked about this before, does not lie with what people think, which is none of our business, but with how people think. And I think that the one of the greatest challenges that social discourse in the western world faces today is that more and more people are losing their ability to think intelligently, responsibly, humbly, reflectively on a host of issues, and I think that that's what education should focus on, giving people tools to think responsibly about whatever issue that bothers them. So

David Bryfman: 9:16

I don't want to suggest that this is mutually exclusive, but there will be situations, especially I imagine in your role with birthright Israel, that a young person, a young adult, will come onto a birthright program and will have views which get close to blurring that moral clarity for you, or they'll have opinions which you might find very difficult to deal with on a moral level. So I want to make the distinction here between your statement about the educators role to uphold moral clarity, and then your love of the individual learner, regardless of what their viewpoints might be. So let's put it into action. A young person comes on a birthright Israel program and challenges you with some things which you think are morally clear, but for them it's not as clear. How do you as an educator have that conversation?

Unknown: 9:59

First of all. It is the ability to have that conversation, absolutely and second, David, I think that in many cases, people are very occupied with the application of what is known in our field as safe spaces for discussion. I add to that requirement of a safe space that allows each person to voice their opinion as their unalienable right. I also add the need for a brave space, and a brave space is the ability to introduce to our learners and to ourselves that a solid dialog can only happen if someone feels secure to voice their opinions, but also has the moral integrity and maturity and willingness to become a resilient listener. That means someone who remains around the table even when they hear voices radically different than their own, rather than intuitively cancel that noise out. And I cannot teach people how to do this without being a role model of doing it myself. So in fact, if a student the sort of which you described, comes to me, I will welcome such a conversation and then start unpacking what they're saying in a manner that will not necessarily resolve that conundrum, but allow us to find a shared platform to engage in a dialog without necessarily agreeing on everything.

David Bryfman: 11:26

This is like so interesting in so many ways, and I think October 7 has raised the stakes on this particular conversation. But you and I, both being students of informal education and students of Barry Hassan and so many others, we're very familiar with the informal educational framework, where the educator, the Madrid the counselor, basically gives positive reinforcement to every response that a young person gives, no matter how ridiculous it might actually have been. The experiential education for many years, was motivated by the desire just to acknowledge and to affirm every single learner. And I can remember even myself like, Oh, thank you. That was a good answer, and in the back of my mind, saying like that was real, not true, like you just made that up, but we fell into that trap often as educators, just affirming everything that was said. And I think what you're saying here is yes, on one hand, maintaining, you know, the respect and dignity of all learners in a safe and a brave space is important. But actually there's something far more important. The stakes are much higher than just the self esteem of every individual learner.

Unknown: 12:23

Absolutely David, and it goes far beyond what you just described right now in the in the last minute, because I think that this tendency of affirming every word that comes out of any learner's mouth is exactly what created eventually echo chambers of consent, which obviously lead to not only intellectual redundancy and mediocrity, but also actually pull the pull the plug out of any ability to have intelligent, probing, reflective discussion about any issue. And I believe, I strongly believe, that students actually would like to be challenged far more than they would like just to be affirmed if they really want to learn something. And I that is why, when I have discussions of this sort, with with students or with tour educators, who later on address students, I tell them, try to encourage yourself and others to actually see conversations with those who disagree with you, because you may learn and sharpen your intellectual faculties far greater than having discussions with those who are already on your side. Preaching to the choir is not exactly the way to gain wisdom, and that's something that is very much part of my pedagogy, and the pedagogy also that is applied on birthright and other organizations as well. That's

David Bryfman: 13:45

a major critique against, I think, education in the western world in general, where it's been heading for the last few decades. But let's apply it to Jewish education, or to Israel education specifically. Now is what you're suggesting. Is actually a pathway that we've been going on for many years. Wasn't October 7, which revealed all of that to you. This was present well before October 7 when it comes to Israel and Jewish education, absolutely.

Unknown: 14:08

And you know this, David, from previous conversations we held, I remember you sitting in a room in front of me and asking a host of senior educators what has changed and what has not changed. And for me, a lot changed, but it changed in terms of amplifying undercurrents who had existed there 10 and 20 years ago. So a lot of the things that you and I are discussing right now have actually no direct connection to October 7, albeit October 7 brought them to the surface in a very persuasive manner. And

David Bryfman: 14:39

perhaps October 7 was so traumatic that it allows us to confront some of these challenges in ways that we weren't able to do before, because in way, it almost ripped off the band aid of many of these things. And now maybe we're able to explore these issues further, and let's see if we can go there. So if I was to ask you, Zohar, what do you think is the. Biggest problem facing Israel education today. What would you surmise is the number one challenge facing the field today? And we can get into an argument, is it a field or isn't a field? Let's leave that for another, another time. But the biggest challenge right now for Jewish and Israel education, and I've conflated the two, you might not conflate the two, but what's the biggest challenges you see it today? Um,

Unknown: 15:20

there are a number, but I think that if you ask me to choose one right now, to take advantage of the opportunity of this, of this podcast, I would say that reclaiming the narratives of Israel and Zionism and reclaiming it in a non apologetic a significant way, readdressing Israel, the State of Israel and Zionism in what I believe is the appropriate context, in creating a platform of intelligent, reflective, critical discussion about what the state of Israel is and what is the Zionist movement, namely, the State of Israel in the context of the Land of Israel and the Zionist movement in the context of the Zionist idea, or the Zionist value statement. This is a great challenge. And the second challenge is the great disparity that I find between the multi layered reality of Israel and the oftentimes single layered perception of Israel, and that is pretty much the landscape in which people like you and I operate, we aim to mitigate the gap between what Israel is and what people see Israel based on social media, other media platforms, sound bites headlines, which is very, very, very myopic, very, very single dimensional in nature, and does not allow our participants or our potential audience to fully grapple with Israel in all of its what I call splendid imperfections. And the last thing I would say is that we need to stop treating Israel or judging Israel or criticizing Israel as if it aspires to be an ideal state. And I've said it for many, many years, Israel never aspired to be an ideal state, but rather it aspires to be a state of ideals. And once we unpack those ideals and we start criticizing Israel, we can actually affect positive change in the conversation about Israel, in the conversation of Jewish peoplehood, both between educators and between our students, but putting Israel on an undeserving pedestal, as it were, is a disservice not only to our students and to ourselves, but also to Israel, and in that respect, I would go for a much more realistic approach to the state and to its evolution.

David Bryfman: 17:38

I want to ask you about several of these things, but I want to start with the second one first and ask you, I know that you Let's challenge it in terms of saying it's obvious that the main way most of our young adults and teens learn about Israel is through social media and news, which is dominated by reflecting military actions and government policies, which you and I know at that level can be confronting for our youth of today, especially in the western democracies in which we live. So what you're saying is true, and it also acknowledges that there's a reality that we're dealing with. And I think in some ways what you're talking about with at least your second point is there's often a disconnect between what we aspire to as educators and what we know to be the truth or the reality of our young people today, and somehow we're trying to bridge those two things. But wow, it's a it's an ambitious task to think that Jewish education is powerful enough to fight against the forces of social media. But in some ways, that's what you're suggesting.

Unknown: 18:33

It is ambitious. But I will say this, David, I wholeheartedly believe that education in general, or at least what I would render solid education in general, and definitely Jewish and Israel, education is becoming a counter cultural endeavor, and that we need, with great intentionality and purpose, work against the zeitgeist, which leads to what I call junk Food for Thought, the presentation of very, very mediocre and conflicting information, lack of knowledge, willed, ignorance, demagogy, manipulation and so on and so forth. The educator today must make a conscious decision to go against culture and not with it.

David Bryfman: 19:16

Is Zionism cultural, or counter cultural for the Jewish people,

Unknown: 19:20

Zionism the way it is perceived today by many, and the critique they have of it is very much going hand in hand with the culture Zionism, the way I see it, and what I believe is the context which needs to be reintroduced is obviously counter cultural.

David Bryfman: 19:37

And you think that's a battle worth fighting to reclaim Zionism, for me to

Unknown: 19:41

hear you ask whether reclaiming Zionism is a battle worth fighting is akin to you asking is the battle to maintain myself as a Jew is a battle worth fighting for so it's part of who I am, and I believe, part of who we are. Again, I'm not talking about the Zionist movement alone. I'm talking about Zionism. Them in its context,

David Bryfman: 20:01

Zohar, let's see if we can go a bit more to the personal. And you and I also have both discussed over time that it's very hard to distinguish between the professional roles that we hold and the personal positions that we hold in life. And maybe we can get a bit self reflective here and ask you the question, as Zohar, the educator for many decades now, where do you think you have been most successful as a Jewish educator?

Unknown: 20:26

I want to believe that one of my significant contributions lies in the ability to assist in creating a comprehensive and clear language for the field, articulating certain key concepts that allowed, and hopefully continue to allow, many of our educators around the world to brush their minds against complex ideas in relatively accessible manners, and to inspire educators to the fact that education is truly a holy work. It's a mission. It's not a job. And I would like to believe that my contribution to the language and the approach of Jewish and Israel education is something that is felt and will continue to be

David Bryfman: 21:20

felt in the field. And you might not say this, but let me say this is that what you just said is language or as an as a response that could appear in any academic institution or in appear in books or in articles. And what you've been able to do is to translate those thoughts and that thinking into possibly the largest, most scaled Jewish intervention at least of the last 50 years and taken that to birthright Israel. So I think it's the ability for you to have those opinions and those thoughts and that language, but then to be able to scale it at a magnitude that I don't think we've seen before. I think that's that's a real talent, and that's a that's something we should be able to celebrate as Jewish educators. It is,

Unknown: 22:00

it is, it is an awesome task, and you're right. And it's, it's, it's a great honor to have this, this position and this potential of impact. Yes, it's

David Bryfman: 22:10

interesting. Sometimes asking educators about their greatest successes is more difficult than the following question, but let's, let's throw both of them out there. Where do you think you didn't get it right? If you were to look back at your career, especially as it relates to Israel education, if you could do something all over again, where do you think you might not have got it right?

Unknown: 22:27

I think it goes back to something that you and I discussed before, and that's something that appeared to me after October 7. I think that in the name that, in the name of of safe spaces, I allowed for educational processes that were far too apologetic than they should have been. And I think that one of the moments of Recalculating route for me, on a personal level and a professional level that happened after October 7 is the understanding that education needs to stand for something, and that when you stand for something, there will always be those who don't like what you stand for, and you should be comfortable with that. In other words, that education is not should not aspire to cater to all all the time, but aspire to have a backbone and attract people to it through its arguments, through its invitation for dialog, through its belief in certain values, fully understanding that it has at any given moment, there will be those who will not abide by it, and today, I'm much more comfortable with it,

David Bryfman: 23:36

if I'm not mistaken. In the past, you have used the word pluralism as part of your pedagogy, that you believe that education, by definition, should be as open minded as it possibly can be, absolutely

Unknown: 23:47

always, even more so today. But you also know that I've always spoken about unity without uniformity. And I also think that as we celebrate our pluralism, definitely when it comes to opinions, mindsets, ideologies, we should also give time to celebrate our unifying elements as a people, and also give them the time and space they need, lest we start taking them for granted. So

David Bryfman: 24:16

just an aside for our listeners, part of this conversation is rooted in the fact that I believe that after October 7, that Jewish education does need to undergo some fairly major significant changes. Not that they weren't necessarily necessary before October 7, but more so after October 7, and now is the time we live in. And there's a question mark as to whether you can actually improve a field or improve the status quo by shining a bright on all of the highlights and the bright spots, or whether you also need to actually focus on some of the some of the setbacks challenges. Some people even call them failures, and this is a debate that I'll be exploring with, with Zohan, with other guests, as well as to without necessarily having to go through this completely self critical to the point of despair analysis of. One's own performance and behavior is how much introspection needs to take place for a field in order for us actually to to move on, improve and do and do better, given the new realities in which we live, any reflections on on that? Zohar,

Unknown: 25:12

yes, yes, of course. David, because that's a process that has been going on in my mind as well. And actually here I will probably take the maimonidean doctrine of finding a middle ground between understanding that I don't need to reinvent the wheel of Jewish and Israel education, because, quite frankly, we've done a lot of good work, all of us up to October 7, but at the same time, what had happened since then is that it forced us to recalculate some of the routes that we either believed worked or overlooked for whatever reason, and it forces us now to revisit some of our philosophies and pedagogies. And I think that that's a very healthy process, but I think that a balanced act between the two is existentially important for the Jewish people and for Jewish educators, because at the end of the day, I really believe that Jewish educators have a great mandate in their hands, and it comes with awesome responsibility, and we have to come back to our people saying we have the courage to celebrate what We believe worked, and to re examine, even painfully so what we believe needs to change. I try to uphold that in my own life and with my own work. With birthright is all where we change certain things, but other things that worked and still work, we even heightened in order to bring the awareness of people that not everything is bad, just like not everything is wrong or good. Let's

David Bryfman: 26:40

give an example of both, if we can, because I think birthright is a good example, if we can just drill down what's, what's the number one thing in birthright that you think right now, there's a particular mandate to double down on the success of something that birthright has, has been doing well for a long time, the

Unknown: 26:55

value of mutual responsibility, accountability and solidarity. I think that what had happened after October 7 showed to everybody the incredible potential and contribution of that sense of peoplehood, where both Israeli young adults and American or other young adults from around the world feel that they are connected, but not only connected, that they help each other and derive help from the other and support. In other words, that sense which has been woven through birthright Israel trips as part and parcel of what is the let's say the inertia of the trip is now well defined, well articulated, and has been put into our educational platform, an element which we are now looking to add and which did not exist up to this point, is the element of volunteering, which is a term, by the way, which I'm not happy with, because I don't think that it's about volunteering. It is about, again, mutual responsibility and call to action, which we believe has become a very necessary element of participants who come to Israel and don't see themselves only as passive recipients of education, but also as giving back while on the educational experience itself, and that is something that has already become part and parcel of the birthright Israel experience. This

David Bryfman: 28:13

is a slight tangent, but it just really interests me what you've just said. It's clear to me how both of those examples impact the American or the Jew from outside of Israel coming on a birthright trip. Can you explain, as an Israeli, how do those things also impact the lives of Israelis and Israel as well?

Unknown: 28:28

Tremendous impact David, tremendous impact to see the faces of young adults from moshevim in the south, of people with agricultural farms who've been assisted by birthright Israel graduates for two weeks every time that help them to maintain their livelihood and maintain their jobs and work and fields to see the eyes of Israelis open when they start to understand that world Jewry is not Just a deep pocket and miss the eye, but rather, it is a complex mechanism that brings with it great vitality, great importance and a great support system has been overwhelming and and I think that that sense of overwhelm, by the way, typifies Israeli society by and large since October 7, it's

David Bryfman: 29:18

one of the things which I think is Maybe, I don't know if it's overwhelming, but it complicates this discussion for me in many ways that we in the diaspora, and here I'm putting you sort of like working on behalf of a diaspora jury. We're trying to work beyond October 7. What comes next? What do we do afterwards? The day after? Some people have called it, and for many aspects of Israeli society, we're still in the midst of the war. It's like there are still soldiers fighting, being wounded and killed, literally every all the time. There are 101 hostages still there for many Israelis. October 7 is not over, and yet the conversations outside of Israel are almost looking towards the next day. I think this is something which is, it's a divide, I think. And I think. Think your pedagogy helps bring it together, but I don't think we can underestimate that divide still exists. Yeah,

Unknown: 30:06

I don't know if I would necessarily call it a divide, or I will call it a difference in focus. First of all, I don't speak David when I speak to audiences on both sides of the ocean. I don't speak only about October 7. I speak about October 7 in Israel, and October and October 8 in the Western world. I think that the October 8 challenges that American Jewry needed to face and still needs to face are very much also on our consciousness here in Israel. But you're absolutely right. As an Israeli, I can tell you, and I've recently written about this that every morning, every morning, brings with it another sense of mourning. And we are still, we're still very much in this ongoing mechanism which forces us to look at the site while we still need to uphold the vision. And actually, I think that that's where people like you and me can help each other to a great degree, because sometimes I find myself in great need of your way of seeing things from your context, and I want to believe that sometimes you need people like me to give you the context that happens in Israel. But yeah, we need to work together in order to mitigate this, what you call divide, or at least to show each community the other focus of its sister community, so we can work together on these challenges.

David Bryfman: 31:27

Well, I can assure you that your touch points over the last year have greatly informed how I've been thinking about what's been happening, and my biggest fear was the distancing of the realities and having people like yourself and you and I know of others as well who made sure that we were in constant dialog was one of the most important pieces for me being able to get through the last 12 months, personally and as an educator, I think I know the answer this last question, but I don't want to presume it. You've traveled around the world to various communities talking about similar related topics. I'm wondering, does your message ever change? And why I'm asking this is, is this truly a Jewish people who had a global Jewish moment, or are there differences which need to occur when you're speaking to different communities? It's

Unknown: 32:09

it's a valid question, and, and, and I honestly believe, and you're right. I've been all over the different parts of the world. I truly believe that what we're witnessing right now, David is a transition, a moment of national awareness that is of global scale. Yes, you may find different approaches in Australia versus the US or South Africa or France or England, all of which, all of whom are communities I'm engaged with right now. At the end of the day, I think that the challenges that all Jews are facing right now are pretty much the same, and the things that worry the Jewish community on a global level is also pretty much similar. And on that note, I want to say one more thing with your permission, which we have not touched everywhere I go, one of the prevalent questions I hear from stakeholders, leaders and so on and so forth, is, what can education do to fight anti semitism, which is a question I obviously understand, and I want to share with you my answer to this question, because I believe that it's at the very heart of the philosophy which I believe we should uphold, and that is that for education, and for Jewish education, fighting anti semitism is not a goal, it's an outcome. The goal of Jewish education is to instill a Jewish identity that is based on the inner mechanisms, values and debates of Jewish life, to create proud, resilient, well informed, critically thoughtful individuals who are members of the Jewish people. And the outcome of such a process will be such people fighting anti semitism because they are motivated internally to do so, rather than instructed externally to do so. And I don't think that education should externally instruct people to fight anti semitism, but motivate them from positive, proactive identity formation, and one of those outcomes would be people fighting anti semitism. But we should remain very focused on what is our goal here. Thank

David Bryfman: 34:11

you. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's an important message for many of our well, you know this for many of our stakeholders to hear as well. Let me ask you that question, because there are other stakeholders in Jewish education, more than just the Jewish students and the and the teachers. Let's talk one sentence, if we can, about the funders, the philanthropists, the federations, those that support the the enterprise of Jewish education. If you had one message for those stakeholders, what would that be?

Unknown: 34:36

Well, David, that's a great question. It's a very, very important question, and it's a question that both you and I have been dealing with now for, for quite some time and with with greater sense of urgency, since October 7. And my take on this is that I believe that Jewish philanthropy should also consolidate its power and rally around a much. Comprehensive, well articulated vision for Jewish and Israel education, and put its resources into a process that allows for the creation of not only a well defined and thoughtfully crafted pluralistic roadmap for what are the necessary requisites for solid Jewish and Israel education, but really rally around such a roadmap, also in terms of assisting in the cultivation and creation of a generation of educators who are much more equipped with dealing with those issues. Because, in my opinion, David, one of the greatest challenges that we face is not only the subject of Israel and Jewish education as a subject matter or as a content matter, it's also the great need that we all have for solid educators who are able to address and tackle these profound questions, and do so in a manner that is not only informative and challenging, but also functioning as role models of how to deal with difficult questions in Jewish life without losing one's attachment to one's Jewish life. Thank

David Bryfman: 36:15

you. Thank you for that. It's I feel bad for the audience. I forgot that we were recording this feels like one of Zohar and my conversations that we have on a somewhat regular basis, and now I actually realize there's an audience out there as well. So hi audience. I hope you've enjoyed, I mean, enjoyed is not the right word. I hope you've been provoked and challenged as much as I have, not just in this conversation, but in much of Zohar work, which transcends this podcast. Obviously, we'll link some notes to some of the articles in which Zohar refers to but I do want to ask you one question specifically related to this. This conversation, is there an educator in your in your life that you think has impacted you most to get to articulate some of these views? Well,

Unknown: 36:54

first of all, of course, we're both indebted to Professor Barry Hassan, who's had a major, major work and impact on our lives. But I will be remiss if I don't mention also professor Bernard Riesman, who has been a major force in my life, and whom I had the great honor of studying under. And Bernie brought with him a great sense of humility and a wisdom that reflected his vision for for the Jewish people, always focusing on not shying away from the challenges, but focusing on reminding us that being Jewish is actually something to be proud of. Both he and Barry Hassan have been great influences in my life.

David Bryfman: 37:39

I never had the opportunity to study with Bernie, although you and I did meet at Brandeis University. Well, we actually, I think, first met at a cemetery in Newport Rhode Island, where

Unknown: 37:49

I did a program about the Newport Rhode Island cemetery in synagogue in UK. I remember

David Bryfman: 37:54

that day, but it wasn't about the cemetery or the synagogue. Was it?

Unknown: 37:58

No, it was, was about identity formation, and it's

David Bryfman: 38:01

so interesting that we talk about, I mean, you talk about identity formation now as not being a response to anti semitism. In fact, that we formulated those beginning conversations about Jewish identity in a cemetery,

Unknown: 38:13

it's not lost to me in a tiny Jewish cemetery in Newport, Rhode Island. Zaha,

David Bryfman: 38:17

thank you. Thank you for everything you do. Thanks for being part of this conversation. I look forward to seeing you in the next couple of weeks, both stateside at the General Assembly for the Jewish Federations of North America, and then I'll be coming to Israel with a group and a pass across, hopefully there as well. So I thank you for everything,

Unknown: 38:35

David, always, always a pleasure and an honor.

David Bryfman: 38:39

Today's episode of adapting was produced by Dina nussenbaum and Miranda Lapides. The show's executive producers are myself, Karen Cummins and nessa Lehman. Our show is engineered and edited by Nathan J Bourne of njv media. Few enjoyed adapting this season, and particularly this episode, please leave us a five star rating on Apple podcasts, or even better still, share it with a friend. This will be part of an ongoing series about the future of Israel and Jewish education after October 7, to learn more about the Jewish education project, please visit us@jewishedproject.org you can there learn more about our mission history and staff. And as always, we are a proud partner of UJA Federation of New York. And thank you as always for listening.

Unknown: 39:22

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